Discussion:
New Orleans - awash in corpses: evacuate poor women and children last.
(too old to reply)
ClassWarz
2005-09-05 10:54:39 UTC
Permalink
The axiom 'women and children first' has been changed in racist classist
America: it's now poor minority women and children last. In academic
circles, it's called Applied Conservatism:


quote

New Orleans - awash in corpses


Sep 5 2005


icWales

NEW Orleans turned much of its attention to gathering and counting the dead
across a ghastly landscape awash in thousands of corpses. "It is going to be
about as ugly of a scene as I think you can imagine," the US homeland
security chief warned.

As authorities struggled to keep order yesterday, police shot eight people,
killing five or six, after gunmen opened fire on a group of contractors
travelling across a bridge on their way to make repairs, authorities said.

Air and boat crews searched flooded neighbourhoods for survivors, and
federal officials urged those still left in New Orleans to leave for their
own safety.

To expedite the rescues, the Coast Guard requested through the media that
anyone stranded hang out brightly coloured or white linens or something else
to draw attention. But with the electricity out though much of the city, it
was not known if the message was being received.

With large-scale evacuations completed at the Superdome and Convention
Centre shelters, the death toll was not known. But bodies were everywhere:
floating in canals, slumped in wheelchairs, abandoned on highways and
medians and hidden in attics.

"I think it's evident it's in the thousands," Health and Human Services
Secretary Michael Leavitt said yesterday, echoing predictions by city and
state officials last week. The US Public Health Service said one morgue
alone, at a St. Gabriel prison, expected 1,000 to 2,000 bodies.

In the first official count in the New Orleans area, Louisiana emergency
medical director Louis Cataldie said authorities had verified 59 deaths - 10
of them at the Superdome.

"We need to prepare the country for what's coming," Homeland Security
Secretary Michael Chertoff said yesterday. "We are going to uncover people
who died, maybe hiding in houses, got caught by the flood. ... It is going
to be about as ugly of a scene as I think you can imagine."

Chertoff said rescuers have encountered a number of people who said they did
not want to evacuate.

"That is not a reasonable alternative," he said. "We are not going to be
able to have people sitting in houses in the city of New Orleans for weeks
and months while we de-water and clean this city. ... The flooded places,
when they're de-watered, are not going to be sanitary."

Evacuations continued late yesterday as Coast Guard helicopters picked up
refugees from a dry stretch of Interstate 10 where they had been dropped off
by rescue boats.

One of the last groups taken out Sunday was a family of six that included
three-year-old twins. The Coast Guard planned to resume evacuation flights
this morning.

Late yesterday a civilian helicopter crashed near the Danziger Bridge, but
the two people on board escaped with only cuts and scrapes, according to
Mark Smith of the state office of emergency preparedness.

In yesterday's confrontation, 14 contractors on their way to help plug the
breech in the 17th Street Canal were travelling across the bridge under
police escort when they came under fire, said John Hall, a spokesman for the
Army Corps of Engineers.

Police shot at eight people carrying guns, killing five or six, Deputy
Police Chief W.J. Riley said. None of the contractors was injured,
authorities said.

In addition to the lawlessness, civilian deaths and uncertainty about their
families, New Orleans' police have had to deal with suicides in their ranks.
Two officers took their lives, including the department spokesman, Paul
Accardo, who died on Saturday, according to Riley. Both shot themselves in
the head, he said.

"I've got some firefighters and police officers that have been pretty much
traumatised," Mayor Ray Nagin said. "And we've already had a couple of
suicides, so I am cycling them out as we speak. ... They need physical and
psychological evaluations."

The strain was apparent in other ways. Aaron Broussard, president of
Jefferson Parish, dropped his head and cried on NBC's "Meet the Press."

"The guy who runs this building I'm in, emergency management, he's
responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing
home, and every day she called him and said, 'Are you coming, son? Is
somebody coming?' And he said, 'And yeah, Momma, somebody's coming to get
you. Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody's coming to get you
on Wednesday. Somebody's coming to get you Thursday. Somebody's coming to
get you on Friday' - and she drowned Friday night. She drowned on Friday
night," Broussard said.

"Nobody's coming to get her, nobody's coming to get her. The secretary's
promise, everybody's promise. They've had press conferences - I'm sick of
the press conferences. For God's sakes, shut up and send us somebody."

Hundreds of thousands of people already have been evacuated, seeking safety
in Texas, Tennessee and other states. The first group of refugees who will
take shelter in Arizona arrived yesterday in Phoenix. With more than 230,000
already in Texas, Gov. Rick Perry ordered emergency officials to begin
preparations to airlift some of them to other states that have offered help.

Amid the tragedy, about two dozen people gathered in the French Quarter for
the Decadence Parade, an annual Labour Day gay celebration. Matt Menold, 23,
a street musician wearing a sombrero and a guitar slung over his back,
said: "It's New Orleans, man. We're going to celebrate."

In New Orleans' Garden District, a woman's body lay at the corner of Jackson
Avenue and Magazine Street - a business area with antique shops on the edge
of blighted housing. The body had been there since at least Wednesday. As
days passed, people covered the corpse with blankets or plastic.

By Sunday, a short wall of bricks had been built around the body, holding
down a plastic tarpaulin. On it, someone had spray-painted a cross and the
words, "Here lies Vera. God help us."

end quote

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15932791&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=new-orleans---awash-in-corpses-name_page.html



This will go down as one of the most shameful episodes in American history,
ranking right down there with Fort Pillow, My Lai, Abu Ghraib, Wounded Knee,
No Gun Ri, Guantanamo, and the Tuskegee study. Watch school boards all over
the country purge this episode from the history textbooks--standard
operating procedure.





ClassWarz
unknown
2005-09-05 13:50:01 UTC
Permalink
We aren't responsible for your or their economic condition.
Get that chip off your shoulder and amke your own way in the world.
We don't care if you are orange, blue or purple.
Rob Olsen
2005-09-05 14:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
We aren't responsible for your or their economic condition.
Yes we are.
Post by unknown
Get that chip off your shoulder and amke your own way in the world.
We don't care if you are orange, blue or purple.
If they were white and middle class , we wouldn't be having this
discussion and they wouldn't be dying in the streets a week after the
hurricane.
-

"Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? Oh, I
mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my
beautiful mind on something like that?"

-Barbra Bush
s***@hotmail.com
2005-09-05 14:46:38 UTC
Permalink
Never attribute to malice what can more plausibly be attributed to
stupidity. Or, in this case, bureaucratic inertia. Yelling racism
makes it sound like you've got an agenda or something.

If FEMA hadn't issued an order telling citizens to stay away, possibly
more people could have been rescued by private efforts. Wal-Mart
trucks were getting in, supposedly, and light boats might have been
able to get over the downed canal walls. We could have our own
Dunkirk-style flotillas and our own Miracle On The Marne style convoys
rescuing people in threes and fours, while the government agencies
tried to sort themselves out. Instead, we have this mess.

--
bruce
The dignified don't even enter in the game.
-- The Jam
nmp
2005-09-05 15:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
Never attribute to malice what can more plausibly be attributed to
stupidity. Or, in this case, bureaucratic inertia. Yelling racism
makes it sound like you've got an agenda or something.
Rob's question is still a valid one: would this crisis (especially in the
stadium and at the convention centre) have taken place if these places
were packed with white middle-class families, not black and poor families?
Try to answer honestly.

This may not even be "malice", as in downright deliberate, scheming evil.
Racism works much more subtle than that. But the bureaucratic inertia of
which you (correctly) speak would have been shaken off much quicker (by
said bureaucrats) if it were there "own people" in harm's way.

Also, authorities would probably not ride into town like this:

Loading Image...
Vic Vega
2005-09-05 15:40:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by nmp
Rob's question is still a valid one: would this crisis (especially in the
stadium and at the convention centre) have taken place if these places
were packed with white middle-class families, not black and poor families?
Try to answer honestly.
White middle-class families wouldn't have been there in the first place.
They would have packed their family in the SUV and left town. Actually,
that IS waht they did.
nmp
2005-09-05 15:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vic Vega
Post by nmp
Rob's question is still a valid one: would this crisis (especially in the
stadium and at the convention centre) have taken place if these places
were packed with white middle-class families, not black and poor families?
Try to answer honestly.
White middle-class families wouldn't have been there in the first place.
They would have packed their family in the SUV and left town. Actually,
that IS waht they did.
It was a hypothetical question, yes.
Don Homuth
2005-09-05 16:10:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:40:52 -0400, "Vic Vega"
Post by Vic Vega
Post by nmp
Rob's question is still a valid one: would this crisis (especially in the
stadium and at the convention centre) have taken place if these places
were packed with white middle-class families, not black and poor families?
Try to answer honestly.
White middle-class families wouldn't have been there in the first place.
White middle class families by and large didn't live in the floodable
sections of New Orleans anyway. Some did, but the inner city portions
were owned by white middle class families, and rented to the poor
folks.
Post by Vic Vega
They would have packed their family in the SUV and left town. Actually,
that IS waht they did.
Everyone does what they can and seems best.

It is worth remembering that in the Other areas hit by Katrina, white
rich folks stayed put too. Many of them died too.

It's not just a Race question.
nmp
2005-09-05 16:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Homuth
It is worth remembering that in the Other areas hit by Katrina, white
rich folks stayed put too. Many of them died too.
Yes, good point, and very unfortunate too what happened there.
Post by Don Homuth
It's not just a Race question.
It's not, and it should not be made bigger than it is. But I am convinced
that aspects of racial politics are at least *part* of the question.

The question being: why were the people who went into the Superdome (and
later the Concention Centre) abandoned for days?

Some morons even saying that it was their own fault - for not obeying the
mandatory evacuation on Sunday. Man, they *did* evacuate (from their
homes) and went to the place where they were told they would be safe and
taken care for. Yes, they were also told it was going to be
"uncomfortable", but should they have foreseen themselves that is was
going to be quasi-hell-on-earth? Why was there no food and water there?

As a designated emergency shelter (they did not invent the Superdome to be
a shelter only on Sunday, did they?) that Dome should have been stacked to
the roof with big tanks of water and enough of those military meals (you
call them MREs right?) to feed an entire city for a week.

This Superdome should have been *designed* to be a shelter facility.
Don Homuth
2005-09-05 16:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by nmp
This Superdome should have been *designed* to be a shelter facility.
It was not. It was designed to be a sports stadium.
nmp
2005-09-05 17:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
This Superdome should have been *designed* to be a shelter facility.
It was not. It was designed to be a sports stadium.
See? That's where they went wrong. It should have been designed to be
both. Stadium in normal circumstances, and shelter in times of emergency.
After all, New Orleans knew for decades that they had it coming.
Don Homuth
2005-09-05 19:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by nmp
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
This Superdome should have been *designed* to be a shelter facility.
It was not. It was designed to be a sports stadium.
See? That's where they went wrong. It should have been designed to be
both.
Why? It would have driven the cost higher, and for decades provide No
benefit.
Post by nmp
Stadium in normal circumstances, and shelter in times of emergency.
After all, New Orleans knew for decades that they had it coming.
Ah -- the benefits of Perfect Hindsight.

There is no sports stadium anywhere designed for such a dual purpose.
nmp
2005-09-05 20:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
This Superdome should have been *designed* to be a shelter facility.
It was not. It was designed to be a sports stadium.
See? That's where they went wrong. It should have been designed to be
both.
Why? It would have driven the cost higher, and for decades provide No
benefit.
Insurance payments (on your house, on your health etc.) also make the cost
of living higher, and will hopefully never be of benefit. Because that
would mean that your house burnt down or you got sick or something. Those
will be unhappy events - but at least you will be prepared for them if you
paid that insurance.
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
Stadium in normal circumstances, and shelter in times of emergency.
After all, New Orleans knew for decades that they had it coming.
Ah -- the benefits of Perfect Hindsight.
No, foresight. The flooding of New Orleans after a hurricane is something
scientists, civic engineers etc. have been talking about for ages. You can
easily dig up the articles on the web. Your president's FEMA acknowledged
this to be one of the "three likeliest, most castastrophic disasters"
that could hit the USA when? In 2000 or something. The cuts of funding for
the reinforcement of the levees followed almost immediately...
Post by Don Homuth
There is no sports stadium anywhere designed for such a dual purpose.
I believe there are, but can't find them right now. On the other hand: it
is not something that is very hard to do. Adjustments to existing stadiums
or other great buildings can be made, too. I'm not talking about a deluxe
shelter where you give every evacuee a two-room appartment or something.

Just make sure that there is food, water, sanitation, and basic medical
facilities. Those luxury changing rooms that modern stadiums have, could
easily be converted to makeshift little clinics in no-time. Just make sure
everything that you would need is already there.

Oh, I know that Estadia Latino-Americo (that would be Havana, Cuba) has
regularly housed people sheltering for hurricanes. Cuba has remarkably low
numbers of human casualties during hurricanes. Granted, they do not have
floods either. Anyway, perhaps New Orleans officials should travel to
Cuba and ask how they do it there...
Rock You Like a Hurricane
2005-09-05 20:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by nmp
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
This Superdome should have been *designed* to be a shelter
facility.
It was not. It was designed to be a sports stadium.
See? That's where they went wrong. It should have been designed to be
both.
Why? It would have driven the cost higher, and for decades provide
No benefit.
Insurance payments (on your house, on your health etc.) also make the
cost of living higher, and will hopefully never be of benefit. Because
that would mean that your house burnt down or you got sick or
something. Those will be unhappy events - but at least you will be
prepared for them if you paid that insurance.
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
Stadium in normal circumstances, and shelter in times of emergency.
After all, New Orleans knew for decades that they had it coming.
Ah -- the benefits of Perfect Hindsight.
No, foresight. The flooding of New Orleans after a hurricane is
something scientists, civic engineers etc. have been talking about for
ages. You can easily dig up the articles on the web. Your president's
FEMA acknowledged this to be one of the "three likeliest, most
castastrophic disasters" that could hit the USA when? In 2000 or
something. The cuts of funding for the reinforcement of the levees
followed almost immediately...
Post by Don Homuth
There is no sports stadium anywhere designed for such a dual purpose.
it is not something that is very hard to do. Adjustments to existing
stadiums or other great buildings can be made, too. I'm not talking
about a deluxe shelter where you give every evacuee a two-room
appartment or something.
Just make sure that there is food, water, sanitation, and basic
medical facilities. Those luxury changing rooms that modern stadiums
have, could easily be converted to makeshift little clinics in
no-time. Just make sure everything that you would need is already
there.
Oh, I know that Estadia Latino-Americo (that would be Havana, Cuba)
has regularly housed people sheltering for hurricanes. Cuba has
remarkably low numbers of human casualties during hurricanes. Granted,
they do not have floods either. Anyway, perhaps New Orleans officials
should travel to Cuba and ask how they do it there...
Cuba has dorms in the local schools for evacuation purposes.
--
Tell Them the King of Brawl Hall Sent You
http://brawl-hall.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=71

You need to BeDoper
http://www.bedoper.com
Don Homuth
2005-09-05 21:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by nmp
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
This Superdome should have been *designed* to be a shelter facility.
It was not. It was designed to be a sports stadium.
See? That's where they went wrong. It should have been designed to be
both.
Why? It would have driven the cost higher, and for decades provide No
benefit.
Insurance payments (on your house, on your health etc.) also make the cost
of living higher, and will hopefully never be of benefit. Because that
would mean that your house burnt down or you got sick or something. Those
will be unhappy events - but at least you will be prepared for them if you
paid that insurance.
Poor people, especially renters, don't carry insurance.

Rich people who own rental property seldom do either, for obvious
reasons. If the property is destroyed, they have other things to do
with it and can write it off.
Post by nmp
Post by Don Homuth
Post by nmp
Stadium in normal circumstances, and shelter in times of emergency.
After all, New Orleans knew for decades that they had it coming.
Ah -- the benefits of Perfect Hindsight.
No, foresight.
Wrong.

It would be foresight if folks thought it was worth the extra cost on
the front end. They don't.
Post by nmp
The flooding of New Orleans after a hurricane is something
scientists, civic engineers etc. have been talking about for ages. You can
easily dig up the articles on the web. Your president's FEMA acknowledged
this to be one of the "three likeliest, most castastrophic disasters"
that could hit the USA when? In 2000 or something. The cuts of funding for
the reinforcement of the levees followed almost immediately...
I know what happened to the levee funding, but that has Nothing to do
with the stadium funding decades earlier, which was for an entirely
different purpose.
Post by nmp
Post by Don Homuth
There is no sports stadium anywhere designed for such a dual purpose.
I believe there are, but can't find them right now.
Well, when you do, check back in.
Post by nmp
On the other hand: it
is not something that is very hard to do. Adjustments to existing stadiums
or other great buildings can be made, too. I'm not talking about a deluxe
shelter where you give every evacuee a two-room appartment or something.
Meanwhile, there's this problem Today that wasn't perceived in its
entirety decades ago, when the stadium was built.
Post by nmp
Just make sure that there is food, water, sanitation, and basic medical
facilities. Those luxury changing rooms that modern stadiums have, could
easily be converted to makeshift little clinics in no-time. Just make sure
everything that you would need is already there.
Perfect Hindsight. It works every time. There are Never any problems
with it.
Post by nmp
Oh, I know that Estadia Latino-Americo (that would be Havana, Cuba) has
regularly housed people sheltering for hurricanes. Cuba has remarkably low
numbers of human casualties during hurricanes. Granted, they do not have
floods either. Anyway, perhaps New Orleans officials should travel to
Cuba and ask how they do it there...
Altogether fascinating sidestep, but content-free wrt the current
discussion.
s***@hotmail.com
2005-09-06 01:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by nmp
Post by s***@hotmail.com
Never attribute to malice what can more plausibly be attributed to
stupidity. Or, in this case, bureaucratic inertia. Yelling racism
makes it sound like you've got an agenda or something.
Rob's question is still a valid one: would this crisis (especially in the
stadium and at the convention centre) have taken place if these places
were packed with white middle-class families, not black and poor families?
Try to answer honestly.
Try to lose the condescension.
Post by nmp
This may not even be "malice", as in downright deliberate, scheming evil.
Racism works much more subtle than that. But the bureaucratic inertia of
which you (correctly) speak would have been shaken off much quicker (by
said bureaucrats) if it were there "own people" in harm's way.
Actually, I almost think they tried harder than they would have in your
scenario, for fear of being called "racist". Not that anything they
could have done would have forestalled race warlords and leftards from
slandering them, though.
Post by nmp
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/09/02/PH200...
Only when the liberal authorities' fantasies of how people behave in a
state of anarchy were finally punctured did law enforcement roll in
with a show of force. Should have been done at the very beginning;
more people would have been saved from being savaged by predators.

--
bruce
The dignified don't even enter in the game.
-- The Jam

burrhead_basher
2005-09-05 15:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by ClassWarz
In academic
circles, it's called Applied Conservatism
Elsewhere it's called cleaning out the gene pool, that is, getting rid of
the weak and unfit, which has been going on in the Dark Continent since the
primates came down from the trees
Tim Campbell
2005-09-05 15:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ClassWarz
The axiom 'women and children first' has been changed in racist classist
America: it's now poor minority women and children last. In academic
This will go down as one of the most shameful episodes in American history,
ranking right down there with Fort Pillow, My Lai, Abu Ghraib, Wounded Knee,
No Gun Ri, Guantanamo, and the Tuskegee study. Watch school boards all over
the country purge this episode from the history textbooks--standard
operating procedure.
ClassWarz
Thanks ClassWarz, well articulated...I was ashamed to see the 700 hotel
guests and staff bused out before those right nearby who were waiting
in deplorable condititions...whoever made that call should be ashamed
of themselves.
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